Este año Turner ha revisado toda su gama de dobles. La 5.Spot 2011 modifica un poco la geometría, la dirección y un par de detalles mas. El sistema se mantiene intacto, pero tenía ganas de dedicarle una entrada y hacer una comparativa con la Mojo SL y la Pivot 5.7.
Como podéis ver en la tabla del excel la eficacia de pedaleo de la Turner es muy buena y se adapta bastante bien a un desarrollo 2x10. En la gráfica del Anti-Squat vemos como la Turner y la Pivot son prácticamente idénticas mientras que la Ibis tiene una gráfica diferente (DW-Link 2ª Generación...), mas baja y con mas pendiente. El Pedal Kickback es un poco elevado (36º con un 26-36), pero con un 22-32 hubiese sido de 42º. El Brake Squat como suele ser habitual en los sistemas de este tipo no llama mucho la atención y se queda en un 77%.
En la gráfica del LR es donde Turner marca las diferencias. La 5 Spot tiene un LR progresivo, con un tramo final casi lineal pero que en definitiva va a ser mas sensible que el de la Pivot o la Ibis. Esto hace que la 5.Spot sea la mas Endurera de las tres y los últimos cambios en la geometría refuerzan aun mas esta idea. En el fondo creo que el diseño está influido por la situación dentro de la gama de cada marca... Ibis tiene la Mojo HD y Pivot la Firebird. La RFX sin embargo sigue retrasandose y por eso Turner le da un caracter mas endurero a la 5.Spot, para intentar tener contentos a sus seguidores.
Un saludo.
21 comentarios:
Hey Antonio!
If one calculates the average leverage ratio of the 5 spot, using 140mm and a 2" stroke, you come up with a figure of around 2.75:1. When I look at the chart you provided, it seems that even though I am mentioning an average LR, and this is not constant, the graph of the LR is inaccurate. I say this, because the lowest point on the graph you have of the 5 Spot is just over 2.65:1, and the graph spends most of its time at positions much higher than 2.75:1.
Can you explain this, or am I just misinterpreting/miscalculating? Thanks!
Hello Dakhil,
When I do a model in the linkage program the amount of travel is always a "problem". There a a lot of bike companies that round up the numbers, so when I do a model and get a different number than published I'm not sure if the bike actually has more or less travel or if I'm doing something wrong...
It really depends on the quality of the picture and the number of times that I do the model.... If I'm reviewing an "Old Bike" I can go to Google images, find a few Full HD pictures and build a good model with them. If I get a different number I try again with another picture and if the results are the same I trust my models more than I trust the manufacturer number. The 5-Spot for example was made with very good pictures and I always get a few more millimeters of travel (142-145), So I think that maybe Dave turner is rounding up a little bit the number... I'm not sure. Anyway, this is something that doesn't affect too much to the graphs, even if they are a little bit higher or lower the shape is going to be the same and that's the most important info that you can read in the LR Graphs...
Best regards,
Tony.
Thanks Antonio! I actually have been having some excellent conversations about linkage design graphs and bikes with Varaxis from MTBR, and he explained what you just did just a short while ago. It clears things up a lot, and I thank you guys for your time, effort and willingness to help me understand all of this.
Due to the graphs and my experience with some of the bikes on trails, I think I've discovered a lot about what I like and don't like, and this will help me as I prepare to make my first FS bike purchase next week.
Thanks for the comment,
If you have a lot of experience testing bikes and you start looking at my blog it's very easy to "connect the dots" and then buying bikes becomes something a lot more easier...
Varaxis, Craigsj... I know a few regulars at mtbr.com that keep an eye on the blog and use the program a lot.
Best regards,
Tony.
Indeed...that is precisely my plan. Gonna take some time, for sure, but this is a great resource.
Voy a volverme loco con tu blog.
Ahora mismo tengo abiertas 5 pestañas en mi navegador con diferentes entradas de tu misma pagina!.
A ver; explicame por favor por que en esta entrada modificas el desarrollo que normalmente aplicas a los analisis, para calcular las graficas... Por que no me cuadra el pkbck tan alto que le sale a esta bici.
Digo yo que bajaria si por ejemplo hubieras usado un, digamos 38/16!!!.
Un saludo.
Pues no tengo ni idea XDDDDDDDDDD
A las bicis de Enduro y XC a veces les hago la Tabla de Excel para un 2x10, pero dejo el 32-15 para las gráficas.... En esta entrada me dio por hacerlas en plato pequeño, pero no me acuerdo del motivo.
De todas maneras el Pedal Kickback depende del desarrollo... asi que tienes que tenerlo en cuenta. En plato mediano 15º es "casi lo mismo" que 10º, pero cuando ves las graficas del plato pequeño las cifras empiezan a ser un poco mas preocupantes...
Me has hecho recordar una vez leyendo el Bike, que en un Supertest habian incluido las gráficas, el proggrama usa un 44-15 por defecto y en la prueba lo habian dejado tal cual, asi que al comentar el resultado, que mo recuerdo cual era, decian que era bajisimo.... el sistema es una maravilla... no tiene kickback... Y era un cuadro que tenía un dato bastante alto.
Un saludo.
Lo dicho, me vas a volver tarumba!.
Si, precisamente una de las pestañas que tenia abierta era la del tutorial de pdckbck... Y la de la Pivot Mach 5.7, y la de la Giant Reign, y la de la tuner 5.Spot.
En fin que pensava que despues de tanto tiempo leyendote... No havia entendido nada!.
Que alivio... Un saludo.
Por cierto, lo de las revistas es un asunto que daria para mucho debate, por que clama al cielo las cosas que publican, y la frivolidad con la que hacen sus conclusiones.
Un saludo.
Pulled the trigger on a 2012 5 Spot frame last week. Should be ready to complete the build in a few months. Super excited!
I had planned to go 29er, without question, as they just feel more stable, but it came down to the Sultan vs the 5 Spot, and the Spot had me smiling while riding. Done deal! I still plan to (possibly) get a Sultan somewhere down the line, but for now, it looks like my first FS bike will be a good ol 26 inch!
I think it's a good decision. 29'' trail bikes are a bit expensive right now and there is not much options to choose.
When I designed my frame I thought about that a lot, and at the end I decided to go for a 26''. Next bike will be probably a 27.5'' or a 29'' but right now it's much easier to buy a good 26'' AM frame and build it with nice 26'' parts.
Best regards,
Tony.
I agree Antonio. Better fork choices, for one, are just much more available with 26" frames. On that same subject, however, I'm having the most difficult time finding a 160mm coil fork. Seems almost every manufacturer has gotten rid of their coil fork in that length of travel, and I may be forced to go air. Still, I believe I made the right choice, as the 160mm forks can be tuned a lot more, regardless of air/coil spring, which will be important for a rider of my size. I love the direction the 29er forks are going, with the 34mm stanchions, but the compression and coil capability just aren't there yet.
On another note, I'm starting to wonder if I should have been looking at 160mm travel AM rigs, since there are a lot more 170mm coil options than 160mm coil options.
I think for now, I'll try my best to find a 160mm coil fork, and if not, go air. Then, I'll see how that goes, while hoping for a coil 160 to be released, and/or consider switching frames to a 160mm AM bike, if it comes to that. I definitely prefer to try coil front and rear at 220 pounds, but since I don't do a lot of jumping (yet), I may be able to stomach air fork and coil shock.
Yep, this year it's getting a bit difficult to get a coil in 160mm but maybe you can find a Lyrik DH from last year. Another option is a Marzocchi 55 Ti, I've been hearing a lot of good reviews about that fork lately.
Best Regards,
Tony.
I've decided to get a Lyrik Solo Air, then convert it to a U-Turn Coil. Since the Solo Air already has the DH damper and Dual Flow rebound, it basically just needs to be converted to coil, and its a U-Turn RC2DH, with no floodgate. Excited!
Heard GREAT things about the Marz, but at 235 or so geared up (220 body weight), I've been informed that I'd need to use too much air assist with the firmest spring, which kinda negates the positive aspects of going coil.
Hopefully, some of these companies bring back the 160mm coil forks in the next few years. Finding a solution was great, but having options is always better, both for pricing and selection reasons.
Hey Antonio,
Any chance you could show me a table of the Anti-Squat per gear, for a 36/26 setup, and a 32/24 setup? Looks like the one you have up now is for a 39/26, so I was curious about other combinations. It's okay if it's time consuming....just thought I'd ask! I could provide you with my email, so you wouldn't feel obligated to post it on the blog with description/explanation and all.
There you have it. With the new version of Linkage doing this tables is much much easier, you can change a gear clicking just a button. With the old version I had to write the number, click apply, read, go to Excell and write it...
Un saludo.
Absolutely brilliant! Thank you Antonio!
Been doing a lot more research, in an attempt to understand suspension, and I think the 5 Spot may not be what I was even looking for. Sounds a bit crazy, especially as I test rode and bought a frame, but let me explain in very simple terms.
First, I didn't get to test ride on any trails, as there were none near the LBS where I was able to test ride. While I did love the overall feel of the bike, it certainly didn't seem as plush/active to me, as some other bikes I'd ridden before (namely, Specialized's FSR bikes). I really liked the Mojo HD during a demo day at a local trail, but my favorite was the Stumpjumper, due to being more active, and I am just not understanding why the HD and 5 Spot are so enjoyable, yet not what I consider to be the best design for me.
I have truly been going back and forth in my decision making, so I am gonna try to demo a more active bike, as well as a DW Link/Maestro type of bike, for comparison. I need to get these bikes back out on the trail, and better understand what I like on the actual trails. My instinct is telling me that I went for the 5 Spot for all the wrong reasons, and it's killing me that I didn't see this beforehand. Live and learn!
The main thing now, is that I'd like to be sure I want to sell the 5 Spot before doing so. At the same time, I could build it up, ride it for a while, then realize it really isn;t for me, and wish I had sold it as a new frame. Thus, I think it would be wiser to demo a bike with similar suspension, as well as one with a Horst Link type of suspension. We'll see how it works out.
If I don't go DW Link, I am drooling over the availability of so many 160mm bikes outside of the DW Link family. The Chilcotin looks and sounds ideal, and I now finally see why people have been lusting over it. All this time, I've been assuming that 100% anti-squat was the end-all-be-all, when some obviously prefer more active suspension to the increased speed of a dual link bike.
Share your thoughts with me, anyone and everyone. Experiences with dual link and Hisrt/4x4 suspension is more than welcome.
I think that you are freaking out a little bit XD.
Journal Bearings take a few rides to start working nice, and you can also add the bearing kit from RWC.
Choosing a bike is not just science, it's also a matter of prefference. If you don't mind having a bike that bobs a lot, FSR is fine, but I've had a FSR bike for a couple of years and hate it. It was very active without Propedal, but I didn't like the bob, so I had to run PP all the time and at the end the bike was not very active at all...
I would build the frame and give it a chance for a few months of riding at least.
Best Regards,
Tony.
Haha! I hear you...I really do. I just think for getting used to suspension design and having a desire for plush over efficient, I'm better served by the 4x4 design of the Knolly bikes initially.
As I said in the Knolly comment section, I can always sell and swap frames down the line, but I do think that the Chilcotin is an ideal frame for me to learn on, mostly due to its flexibility. Can take 2.5" and bigger tires, has a much burlier build quality, geometry can be slackened by changing the shock points, and the suspension design is much more active. The 5 Spot is a superb frame, but the Chilcotin is just built for a bike guy (I'm 225 geared up). I'll have no apprehension about doing anything I'm willing to do out on the trails. Not to take anything away from the Turner frame, but it wasn't designed for a 225 pound rider to be doing consistent drops and such, even though they now advertise it as an AM bike, with the new slack geometry.
I got to ride a Chilcotin on Sunday, and it felt excellent. Almost like how a 29er has that huge, monster truck feel to it, except no 29er wheels. It just plows, and feels a lot like the Stumpjumpers I had test ridden for months, only to bail on them due to Specialized's proprietary shock sizing. It really just feels super confidence-inspiring, while the Spot felt more playful/quick.
Anyway, you could definitely be right my man....I certainly do tend to over-think things, and could end up wishing I'd stuck with the Spot. You gotta trust your instincts though! I'm just glad that for once, I'm 100% happy with my decision. No doubts whatsoever, as if there's anything about this bike I don't like, it won't be its incapability to do what I need on any terrain in my region. Time to build it up, and ride! I'll keep you posted over time.
Of course, if I can't sell my 5 Spot frame, I'll just build it up and enjoy what I have. Looks like it's set to sell on Thursday though already, and I sold some music equipment to fund the difference, so that I could rock with a CCDB shock. Super excited mayne!
I really hope that you don't loose too much money in the sell.
Are you getting the Coil or the Air CCDB?? I think the air would be too progressive for the Chilcotin.
Un saludo.
Yeah, if I have to lose to much, I'll just build the Spot and be happy with it, until i can spring for a Chilcotin later in life. Because it's a brand new frame, it should sell pretty swell.
I'm planning on getting the CCDB Coil.
If I had the money, I'd have both of these bikes, so I could ride them for years and do some in-depth comparisons.
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